Thursday, August 23, 2007

not seeing the X for the Y

where X is perhaps trees and Y might be forest; but really what I mean is getting the algebra right, but overlooking the point the algebra is meant to support.


For example, in this basic, algebraic summary of swing die theory, a formula is given. I'm copying it verbatim -- except for adding the bullet points to make the definitions easier to read, adding one clarification, and adding some emphasis on a phrase that I think is mistaken:

Ax<=Bx-Di+3/2*(An)-1/2 where:
  • Ax: Player A's swing die size,
  • Bx: Player B's swing die size
  • Di: Player A's initial hand size minus Player B's initial hand size (greater than -1 by definition), [clarification: the intention in this formulation is that this does not include the swing dice of either player]
  • An: The size of one of Player A's dice which must be kept for him to win. This value can vary from Player A's smallest to largest die, including his swing die. Optimally, Player A wants An to equal his smallest die, while Player B wants An to equal Player A's largest die. However, in practice one must vary An to find the optimal swing die that fits in one's swing range
The formula is certainly a correct, if somewhat ungainly restatement of the familiar two-thirds rule. While the author excludes poison dice, it's not that hard to add them into this (treat them as worth (-1/2) their size, as if captured, for the purpose of computing Di). And "An" could be the sum of two dice just as easily as a single die.

Everyone playing buttonmen should know the basic algebraic relationship between the total number of sides each player starts with and the victory conditions on the game, though you don't necessarily have to phrase it this formally. But the real unanswered question is:
WHAT SHOULD YOU CHOOSE "An" TO BE?
All things being equal (and maybe later I'll discuss the many exceptions to this), you'd like to be able to make Ax (your swing die) as large as possible, so long as you satisfy the inequality. Picking an unrealistically low value for An will needlessly restrict your value for Ax.

Example: if I'm playing slamkrypare (t1 10 10 z12 Y -- I've never actually had the pleasure of playing this button, but it illustrates my point)
vs. say, Kitty Cat Seven (4 6 8 10 X if you prefer, you can think of this as Ngozi)
and let's KCS has set her X swing to x=8 and soundly thrashed you, so you get to reset your
swing die.

if you believe "Optimally, Player A wants An to equal his smallest die", then you'll set An to equal 1 and the above formula (with Bx=8, Di=5) yields Ax <= 8 - 5 + 3/2 - 1/2 = 4. And it IS true that if you set s.'s swing die to X=4 in this matchup, you'll win the game if you capture all of KCS's dice and have at least 1 die uncaptured, whereas, if you picked anything higher for your swing, you would still lose if you captured all of KCS's dice, but had only your 1 sided die left at the end. BUT HOW LIKELY IS THAT TO ACTUALLY OCCUR? In order to win the game with ONLY your 1 sided die left uncaptured, on the penultimate move, your opponent would have had to capture your second-to-last die and rolled a 1 [actually, since your 1 sided die is a trip die here, there are some other possibilities, I suppose -- but the basic point is still valid == the idea that you'd lose all your mid-to-large dice and yet manage to strike the death blow with your littlest die is somewhat unlikely. You are much MORE likely to have one large die left uncaptured after the first few moves that you try to protect and avoid rerolling to keep it out of
range of your opponent. So, if you do the calculation with An = 10 [your next largest die, aside
from the swing die itself], you come up with
Ax <= 8 - 5 + 30/2 - 1/2 = 17.5 and setting the swing equal to 17 gives a much more powerful button -- and you still win if you manage to keep any one of your dice (except the 1-sided die). If you are lucky, the 17 will be out of reach of KCS in the beginning; and even if not, she'll have to take it out early and expose herself to your speed die or at least give you a chance to get one of your 10 or 12 sided die out of reach. This example is muddied a bit since the t1 doesn't count for initiative... and setting your Y to 4 will increase your chances of getting initiative from "unlikely" to "somewhat unlikely" [though if someone does a computation or simulation to get hard numbers here, I'll stand corrected]. Anyhow, the same basic principle holds for other buttons; while it's certainly true that I'd like to be able to win with as few dice-sides as possible, I ought to stop to consider what a realistic endgame between these buttons is likely to be. If I'm playing Yeti (10 20 30 30 X) vs. Crab (8 10 12 f20 f20) , the formula above (modified just to account for the fact that Crab has no swing die), tells me I want my X to be <= -20 +(3/2)*An - 1/2 but what is realistic? An = 10 doesn't work, X would have to be negative. An=20 yields X>=9.5, i.e. X=9 is best. An=30 would permit Xn<=24.5, i.e. X=20 would be work. So there are really two options here: set X=9 and try to protect any one of the three big dice 20 30 30; or set X=20 and try to either protect the two big dice 30 30, or keep ANY two dice at the end. It isn't obvious to me which is the better game, though I personally feel more comfortable with the second option.


Wednesday, August 22, 2007

Max vs. Bluff update

No puzzle here...

irilyth and I played two games of
: Max (p12 p12 p20 p20 p30 p30 pX pX)
vs.
Bluff (ps6 ps12 16 20 X) to illustrate the subtleties of Swing die choice for Max. When irilyth played Max, he chose X=20. When I played him, I chose... well, what would you pick?

I didn't choose Bluff at random for this test, I thought it would make a good illustration --
I wanted a button that was worth 35 sides or fewer when captured, and Bluff (worth 31 points when fully captured by Max) might actually be easier for Max than a pure vanilla (non-poison) button with that many sides -- Bluff has the offensive capability of 58 sides, which makes it a little easier to get him to swallow big poison. Also Max could find ways to take advantage of the shadow dice, with some effort.

After starting the rounds, I noticed -- to my surprise -- that on the buttonmen.com statistics pages, out of the 11 previous Max vs. Bluff games played on the buttonmen.com website, Max had lost ALL of them -- had I picked a hopeless example?

As it turned out -- and as is so often the case with Max -- the previous statistics were not a good measure of his true capabilities. [Of course, our two games don't constitute absolute proof of anything, either, but I think it was clear from the playing that, while Bluff probably has an advantage over Max, with reasonable play, it's not an overwhelming, green-highlighted-in-the-statistics kind of advantage.]

In our games, Max lost 3-0 when playing with X=20, but won a squeaker when playing with X=... (oh, right, maybe I'll tell you later).

I'm happy to try this one again with anyone -- feel free to challenge me to either side of Max vs. Bluff!

Tuesday, August 21, 2007

More Max puzzles -- a SINGLE best move in the endgame:

I'm pretty sure I have exactly ONE move that ensures victory here. [other moves may also make victory pretty likely, but there's only one that guarantees it..]

Button Men Game #602955

This game is 'for fun' and does not count for player rankings.
Max has NEVER played Space Girlz? Let's fix that! (and you can challenge me to a reverse match if you like)

Skills in this game: Twin, Weak, Mighty, Ornery, Plasma, Poison, S Swing, Shadow, X Swing
Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Max (p12 p12 p20 p20 p30 p30 pX pX) Score: -109 (-73 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 1 / 0 (Out of 4 wins)
Your Captured Dice: Plasma {Mighty} Poison 12-sided die, 12-sided die
Poison
12-sided die
Poison
12-sided die
Poison
20-sided die
Poison
30-sided die
Poison
30-sided die
Poison X Swing
(with 11 sides)

Poison
20-sided die
9 9 2 1 6 9
4
Captured last turn
Ornery
6-sided die
20-sided die S Swing
(with 6 sides)





6 4 5




Opponent: Gryphon *Rage* *Fanatic*
Button Man: Maya (o6 12 P{hs,H}p12 20 S) Score: 0.5 (73 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 1 / 0
Captured Dice: Poison X Swing 11-sided die, Poison 20-sided die

Monday, August 20, 2007

This is from a current game with Max

But I wanted to wait until the round was over before talking about it.


Note I need G. to swallow 39+ sides of poison in the next two turns in order to win.
He has four choices right now... he must capture with his 20-sided die, but he could capture
either my poison 12-sided die, or either of the poison 20-sided dice, or my poison 30
-sided die [Val 5].

Most people would instinctively take the poison 12-sided die. If he does this, and rolls
anything between 5 and 10, he definitely loses. [I'll capture his 6 sided die with my OTHER 30-sided die, and he'll have to eat the first 30-sided die.]



If he rolls 12 or higher, probably my best chance is again to capture his 6-sided die with my large-valued 30-sided die, and hope it rolls low enough that, after he captures one of my 20-sided dice, he rolls too high and needs to capture ANOTHER. It's not much of a chance [I should calculate these odds!], but it's something


if he rolls an 11, I could either do the same thing as above for 12 and higher, or... and probably a little more likely, I could capture his 6 sided die with my
20-sided die with val 11 and hope to roll ABOVE 11, thus forcing to capture my 30-sided die
this has a 45% chance of success.

if he rolls 1-4, I'm in a bad spot... take the die with one of my 30-sided dice and hope to roll 1-4 myself so his 6 sided die must capture me. only 4/30 of a chance 13.33%
---------------------------
overall, he's in a pretty good position, around 65% chance of victory, maybe a hair less -- but is this best he can do? what if he took a different approach? Presumably he wouldn't take my 30-sided die, but could he do better by taking one of my 20 sided dice? and does it matter which one he takes?


Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Button Man: Max Score: -100 (-64 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 0 / 0 (out of 4 round(s))
Captured Dice: Plasma {Mighty} Poison 12-sided die, Ornery 6-sided die, 12-sided die
Dice Poison
12-sided die
Poison
20-sided die
Poison
20-sided die
Poison
30-sided die
Poison
30-sided die
Value 91112275

Dice 20-sided dieS Swing
(with 6 sides)



Value 124


* Next Turn * Player: Gryphon *Rage* *Fanatic* * Next Turn *
Button Man: Maya Score: -4 (64 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 0 / 1 / 0
Captured Dice: Poison X Swing 11-sided die, Poison X Swing 11-sided die, Poison 12-sided die

Saturday, August 18, 2007

Another endgame position...

Am I better off with the speed attack, or trying to reroll my 12-sided die?

Skills in this game: S Swing, Speed
Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Hale (z8 12 20 20 S) Score: 50 (-13.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 1 / 0 (Out of 5 wins)
Your Captured Dice: 20-sided die, 20-sided die
Speed
8-sided die
12-sided die 20-sided die
5 2 2
Captured last turn
Speed
8-sided die
12-sided die S Swing
(with 6 sides)
8 1 4
Opponent: gauen
Button Man: Hale (z8 12 20 20 S) Score: 70 (13.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 1 / 0
Captured Dice: 20-sided die, S Swing 17-sided die, 20-sided die

Friday, August 17, 2007

No news is ... well, no news

Ack, sorry, real life has intruded and it may be hard to keep this up for the next week or so -- but I am quite interested in accepting submissions -- either positions that came up in a game that you found particularly interesting, or particular aspects of the game about which you have something to say, or about which you'd like to see if I have anything to say.

I notice, by the way, that Max has never played the Space Girlz buttons on buttonmen.com [except for the one game I am currently playing]. I think these could actually be potentially interesting games. For example: Max vs. Maya [which is the game currently going on] -- how do you think Maya should set her plasma die? and what about Max's Swing die? You can see the choices we are currently trying at the link above..

I still think Max is much stronger than his statistics give him credit for being (though I might not go so far as to call him "strong" in an absolute sense -- but way better than 30%). There are certainly specific buttons he can't possibly beat, and there are some buttons to which he can't possibly lose, but for most of the middle, he could do better than people think if he's played correctly -- but it's subtle!

[Not so subtle part] In almost every game, Max will sweep the other button's dice off the field, the real question is how much poison he can make it eat before it goes -- so the object of the game is to set the swings properly so the amount of poison is achievable, then, make moves to force a sufficient amount of poison to be eaten.

In some sense, this is no different than any other matchup -- Buttonmen is always about knowing your victory conditions, and making moves most likely to push the game towards those conditions -- but with Max, that tends to mean finding ways to force your opponent to take at least one large poison die -- and that seems very different than the usual buttonmen plan:
if you take his small dice first and his big dice roll LARGE, they'll have too much choice and can take your smallest poison before they die -- but if you take his big dice first, his small dice may roll too low and get to pass alltogether!

Almost always, you want to have at least one of your larger dice roll lower than at least one of your small dice. With so many big poison, there's a good chance at least one of them will roll moderately low; then it's a matter of forcing its capture.

But this is all pretty vague, illustrative game positions would help -- and I don't have time to construct them right now, maybe I should set up a lot of challenges with Max to try to generate a few.

Wednesday, August 8, 2007

another messy position

I don't think I can prove my next move right -- and I'm prepared to believe I'm wrong -- but I do think it's an interesting choice.

Button Men Game #591452

This game is 'for fun' and does not count for player rankings.
Arena Game: Random BM from Majesty

Skills in this game: X Swing
Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Yeti (10 20 30 30 X) Score: 36 (-16 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 2 / 2 / 0 (Out of 3 wins)
Your Captured Dice: None
10-sided die 20-sided die 30-sided die X Swing
(with 12 sides)
30-sided die
5 16 10 10 11
Captured last turn
4-sided die 4-sided die 12-sided die X Swing
(with 20 sides)
X Swing
(with 20 sides)
4 3 7 9 9
Opponent: kleric *Ninja Boy* *Fanatic*
Button Man: Nerni (4 4 12 X X) Score: 60 (16 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 2 / 2 / 0
Captured Dice: 30-sided die

Monday, August 6, 2007

Once again, I'm in trouble...

Is there *ANY* way to win this round? What would have to happen? Is there something I can do to maximize even the remote possibility of it happening?

Skills in this game: Doppleganger, Poison , Shadow, V Swing, X Swing

Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Jellybean (p20 s20 V X) Score: -5 (-38 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 0 / 0 (Out of 3 wins)
Your Captured Dice: Doppleganger 12-sided die
Poison
20-sided die
V Swing
(with 6 sides)
X Swing
(with 20 sides)
12 5 12
Captured last turn
Doppleganger
4-sided die
Doppleganger
6-sided die
Doppleganger
10-sided die
Doppleganger X Swing
(with 4 sides)
1 4 9 2
Opponent: devious
Button Man: Envy (D4 D6 D10 D12 DX) Score: 52 (38 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 0 / 1 / 0
Captured Dice: Shadow 20-sided die, X Swing 20-sided die

Friday, August 3, 2007

second friday quickie.

I'm in bad shape here; and I'm completely dead unless I reroll my turbo and capture one of his shadow dice... but to what size should I set the turbo?

Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Zeppo (4 12 20 X!) Score: 28 (-13.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 2 / 0 (Out of 3 wins)
Your Captured Dice: X Swing 20-sided die, 4-sided die
4-sided die X Turbo Swing
(with 4 sides)
20-sided die
2 1 18
Captured last turn
2-sided die Shadow
10-sided die
Shadow
20-sided die
1 9 15
Opponent: theAlmighty *heavenly*
Button Man: Merlin (2 4 s10 s20 X) Score: 48 (13.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 2 / 1 / 0
Captured Dice: 12-sided die, 20-sided die

2 friday quick ones... #1

What do you think? should I take the speed-12, or the speed-X4. Is it worth it to increase the chance he
can take my 10-sided die (by only 10%) to eliminate the chance that his speed-12 will roll higher than 10?


Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Reaver (4 10 10 12 pX) Score: 12 (-11.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 2 / 1 / 0 (Out of 3 wins)
Your Captured Dice: Speed 12-sided die
10-sided die 10-sided die Poison X Swing
(with 10 sides)
4-sided die
10 10 1 1
Captured last turn
Speed
10-sided die
Speed
12-sided die
Speed X Swing
(with 4 sides)
2 2 3
Opponent: Desdinova
Button Man: Morgan (z10 z12 z12 zX) Score: 29 (11.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 1 / 2 / 0
Captured Dice: 12-sided die, 4-sided die

Thursday, August 2, 2007

OK, last post on that BMAI game

Though I did save one more position, it would wreck the continuity to put it here.
Again, maybe this one is too easy, it certainly yields to direct computation very quickly.

I have several possible moves, but one is much better than all the others.


Button Men Game #601416

Play the AI! You will be assimilated and stuff.

Skills in this game: Poison, Shadow, V Swing, X Swing
Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Lucky (6 10 p12 20 X) Score: 25 (18.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 2 / 0 / 0 (Out of 3 wins)
Your Captured Dice: Shadow 20-sided die, X Swing 4-sided die
6-sided die Poison
12-sided die
20-sided die
X Swing
(with 4 sides)
2 1 20
2
Captured last turn
Poison
20-sided die
V Swing
(with 7 sides)



4 1


Opponent: bmai *AI* *111111101001000001100 as of 9-22-03*
Button Man: Jellybean (p20 s20 V X) Score: -2.5 (-18.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 0 / 2 / 0
Captured Dice: 10-sided die, X Swing 4-sided die

Wednesday, August 1, 2007

OK, a little later in the same round with bmai

Maybe this one's too easy --there's only one move with any chance of winning [a good chance of winning, in fact], and it's not too hard to see just by checking the score. But I didn't say they'd all be hard!


Skills in this game: Poison, Shadow, V Swing, X Swing
Player: ElihuRoot *Dead Dude* *Fanatic*
Your Button Man: Lucky (6 10 p12 20 X) Score: 6 (-15.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 0 / 0 / 0 (Out of 3 wins)
Your Captured Dice: Shadow 20-sided die, Poison 20-sided die
6-sided die 10-sided die Poison
12-sided die
20-sided die
1 8 2 6
Captured last turn
V Swing
(with 6 sides)
X Swing
(with 4 sides)
2 1
Opponent: bmai *AI* *111111101001000001100 as of 9-22-03*
Button Man: Jellybean (p20 s20 V X) Score: 29 (15.3 sides) Rounds Won/Lost/Tied: 0 / 0 / 0
Captured Dice: X Swing 4-sided die, 20-sided die